Why Did U of T Quit Maclean's Rankings? (Cont'd)

Canadian Universities Forum (discussion group)


 
 
Subject: Why Did U of T Quit Maclean's Rankings? (Cont'd)
To the guy who called me an assclown and a dumbass. First, UofT and UBC are not top in MacLean?s, UofT and McGill are top. I offered speculation (I clearly state is was speculation) to why univeristies have opted out and you respond with lies as if it were facts. Second, no ranking system is perfect. If I offended you because I do not agree with your university for opting out, I invite you to express what did MacLean?s do for your univerisity to opt out. I would like to know. This is more constructive than calling me a dumbass and an assclown. Is that how they teach you to debate in your university?

[16-08-2006,17:52]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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WTF is all this about?

[16-08-2006,17:56]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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see Opting from MacLean?s survey post

[16-08-2006,17:58]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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lol... why are you guys even on this, it?s so stupid, whoever started this maclean?s shit is stupid, the schools already said why they quit, why do people say anymore.

[16-08-2006,18:00]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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I just read about what some of you were saying about the University of Toronto. You guys say that they are opting out because they shared the top spot with McGill last year and they don?t want to lose? Please. UofT has been saying for over 10 years that they don?t agree with the rankings. In fact, they started when they took the top spot from McGill 12 years ago.

Some of you should really make sure you know what you?re talking about before you start making these assumptions and false claims.

[16-08-2006,18:02]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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to OP, do you have anything else better to do? Picking on schools because they quit a ranking? The ranking is obvious flawed otherwise there wouldn?t be 11, now 12 schools protesting against it, whether it be top schools or bottom schools.

you just sound like someone is insecure and need assurance so he needs to take advantage of every chance he gets.

seriously, who cares if they quit, they told you why already and you?ll never get another answer, whatever else is just gossip and nobody really gives a shit.

[16-08-2006,18:06]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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UofT?s timing to opt out is suscipious. In fact, you did not see McGill opt out in the past 10 years after UofT claimed this title, even though McGill has been very vocal about the methodology for years. All ranking systems are flawed. Opting out is not constructive. It is important that universities support such systems. Ranking systems, even though flawed, provide some critisim on how a university can improve.

[16-08-2006,18:07]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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you?re assuming as if UofT is going to drop to scecond...what gives? your hatred toward the school?

the ranking shit is a business, maclean?s makes that up to boost sales, and universities aren?t oblique to offer data to the magazines.

don?t make false claim as if uoft is dropping or shit if it?s only your assumption or sound fishy to you.

[16-08-2006,18:10]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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UofT (dispite being #1 all these yrs), Mcgill, Western, Ubc had complains about Maclean?s since the dawn of time, it?s not just now.

If you people think schools executives are like kids in the sands just entering university fighting over who?s better and what not, you?re wrong.

This is public educations, not private. Educating people is their goal, not fighting over prestige or the lowest entrance %. If they were private schools, bigger schools such as mcgill, uoft and ubc wouldn?t offer helps to york, sfu or concordia in capital investments.


[16-08-2006,18:24]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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I don?t hate UofT. I don?t respect its decision when you consider that it was the only school ranked #1 for a long time to pull out now. I do think nonetheless that a school ranked #1 for a long time has a certain obligation to remain. Why? Because UofT is strong in key areas that was brought to the attention to the public by MacLean?s. McGill in the past years has sought to improve itself in some of these key areas (e.g. hiring Munroe-Blum UofT?s ex vice principal in research) and has become a better school as a result. I am not saying that MacLean?s had anything to do with my example, but schools can use MacLean?s to become better. It is therefore the responsibility of all universities, particulary the ones that do well, to participate actively in ranking systems.

[16-08-2006,18:29]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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you make a good point, but if you look at it carefully, if the top school don?t do anything about it, nobody else will.

if uoft is leading the pack and they?ve got nothing else to say, who else do you think will make a difference or improvement in the rankings? York? Lakehead? Laurier? Uhh, probably not.

i do feel upset on why people are degrading (such as the OP of this thread and last thread) them when the school is actually doing an improvement on the overall system that helps students pick the school that really suits them.

[16-08-2006,18:36]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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I don?t think MacLean?s will change because UofT opted out (along with 10 other universities). MacLean?s will do what it always does. MacLean?s is not specialized in education, just selling magazines. Like all rankings, there is some good points and bad points. It is the responsibility of the public to judge universities by looking at all ranking systems holistically and with scepticism, and universities to use the information that MacLean?s publishes constructively to improve in certain areas which are indead weak. MacLean?s is not garbage and opting out makes it appear that these 11 universities think it is.

[16-08-2006,18:46]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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macleans is a stupid ranking, the fact that UofT quit while they were on top really says things, and no it had nothing to do with mcgill... anyone who thinks so is fucking retarded!do any of you honestly think that if UofT fell to second place next year that it would hurt their enrollment?


Secondly, to the guy who thinks universities strive to improve themselves based on what macleans ranking says: You are an idiot.


[16-08-2006,18:49]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Assclown´s response about MacLean´s)
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I highly doubt Universities use what MacLean?s say to improve upon on what they need to do better. As you?ve said, MacLean?s objective is to sell and they?re not specialized in edcuation. EXACTLY WHY ITS FLAW.

University have their own system and they should know best what to improve upon on, not on advise some outsider who has no clue what it?s doing.



[16-08-2006,23:46]
Anonymous
That's why: (in reply to: Why Did U of T Quit Maclean's Rankings? (Cont'd))
Dear Mr. Keller:

We regret to advise you that our universities will not be participating in the 2006
Maclean?s questionnaire.

We share Maclean?s goal of providing good information for students and their families who are researching post-secondary education. We also compliment you on your editorial coverage of the post-secondary sector. Many of the articles in Maclean´s have contributed to the national discussion about post-secondary education, and have helped to frame students? choices. Our concern relates specifically to Maclean´s attempts to generate a global ranking of Canadian universities.

In various ways and for some years, many institutional spokespersons have expressed considerable reservations about the methodology used in the Maclean?s university survey and the validity of some of the measures used. Thus far, these serious concerns have gone largely unaddressed, and there is still no evidence that Maclean?s intends to respond to them.

We welcome public assessment of our work, and all our institutions devote significant resources to that end. We already publish a great deal of data about our own institutions on-line and intend to publish more in future, ideally in the form of standardized datasets that will facilitate valid temporal and institutional comparisons. However, it is truly hard for us to justify the investment of public funds required to generate customized data for your survey when those data are compiled in ways that we regard as over-simplified and arbitrary.

Our concerns about Maclean?s misuse of data in its rankings issue can be briefly recapitulated here.

To begin with, the Maclean?s rankings aggregate data from a range of variables related to the student body, class sizes, faculty, finances, library and reputation. It is inappropriate to aggregate information across a range of programs at a large and multidimensional research university into a single ranking number. Consider how such an approach might pervert one?s understanding of a general hospital that is ranked #1 in obstetrics and #10 in cancer care. Averaging these rankings would result in this hospital being ranked ?#5 overall?. For the patient seeking care in one of these areas, such a measure would be useless at best and misleading at worst. This is, effectively, the method that Maclean?s applies to Canadian universities by its calculation of ?league tables? based on the arbitrary assignment of weights to variables which, by themselves, are of questionable validity. The variables selected by Maclean?s also fail to capture the breadth of experiences students say are important in their university education such as, for example, extra-curricular activities or the opportunity for rich and diverse interactions with peers and faculty outside the classroom.

We are also concerned by Maclean?s recent attempt to draw comparisons of student experience across incomparable surveys of student engagement, and Maclean´s reliance on survey data with low response rates and all the associated response biases that arise from skewed profiles of respondents. The responsible compilation and comparison of data is a core tenet of academic research. Several universities already show student survey data, in context, on their own web sites and question Maclean´s decision to pull different kinds of data out of context and compare ?apples and oranges?. Maclean?s treatment of these survey data, in our view, fails to give appropriate notice to these methodological limitations.

It is not just the Maclean?s student survey that has suffered from low response rates. Equally troubling is the fact that a clear majority of individuals who receive the Maclean´s reputational survey do not respond. This is a particular concern as the results of the reputational survey not only affect rankings in a significant way, but are given prominence separately by your magazine.

This is only a partial accounting of the methodological flaws in the Maclean?s rankings. In short, the ranking methodology used by Maclean?s is oversimplified and arbitrary. We do find it ironic that universities are being asked to subsidize and legitimize this flawed methodology, when many faculty, staff and students at our institutions are dedicated in their research to ensuring that data are collected rigorously and analyzed meticulously.

We remain open to the possibility of collaborating with Maclean?s at some future date, particularly if we can agree on means to ensure that the data will be valid and the analyses truly informative. Meanwhile, we will continue to publish data on our websites to facilitate informed student and family choice.

Yours truly.



end of discussion?

[17-08-2006,00:00]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Why Did U of T Quit Maclean's Rankings? (Cont'd))
dude, get off uoft´s back, do you have a thing for uoft?

the reason is obvious and anymore you say is basically what you think and nobody really cares about that.

I´m seriously wondering what your motive is, you must be a really insecure dude and waiting for other people to bash uoft to make you feel a little better about your pathetic life.

[17-08-2006,00:02]
Anonymous
(in reply to: Why Did U of T Quit Maclean's Rankings? (Cont'd))
UofT is shit, anyone with a pulse can get in, it isn´t the least bit a prestigious university like McGill or Queen´s, only in a select few eng programs and biochem are they the best in Canada.
[12-11-2008,13:50]
Anonymous



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