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| Subject: Rail travel in Canada |
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I can´t believe the outrageous cost of long distance train travel in Canada. Comparison of least expensive sleeper-class compartment, departing Jan. 14 and returning Jan. 28:
Via Rail - Toronto-Vancouver(BC), CDN $5,283 (distance 2,088 miles)
Amtrak - Chicago-Vancouver(BC), USD $1,323 (distance 1,773 miles)
European overnight sleeping accommodations aren´t even close to this. Canadians must think this kind of travel is only for the super wealthy or retirees with huge savings? Maybe someone up North can help this American who´s a rail traveler understand what´s with this?
[Sorry this isn´t directly related to immigration, unless new immigrants would be interested in knowing about this kind of (costly) travel in their new country.]
[18-12-2009,23:09]
[**.192.28.31]
Richard |
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(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
I didn´t believe myself when I first searched the train itinerary in Canada.
With that much of money you can travel day and night in European fast trains for whole 2 months. With that money you can travel whole year in Germany fast train ICE.
And about time, oh my god, Canada and USA focussed more on cars rather than strengthening the railway system. I had once read in Herald Tribune really nice article about whether US should learn from Europe. As the author mentions "many Americans don´t know that such kind of efficient railway transportation system exists in other part of world".
In Europe you can cross from Norway to Spain in less than 300 Euro in fast and comfortable trains with sometimes reaching 400 kmph.
Probably Canada needs to think it for future.
[19-12-2009,07:37]
[**.50.59.102]
MyCanada |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
WHOA SLOW DOWN HERE.
Compare Europe to Canada regarding Rail Travel, illogical.
Population Centres in Europe are totally different. Population Centres in Europe and in the States makes train travel far more logical. Population Centres in Europe are far more condensed!
Take the European train from downtown City (A) to downtown City (B) is logical using local transit services, proximity to accommodation and purpose of travel. European airports are difficult to get to from the city centre.
VIA Trains are only competitive in the Windsor to Montreal corridor and really only competitive in the Toronto to Montreal corridor.
USA has ten times the population then Canada and Europe centres are far closer together. Check the price of a Train trip from Moscow to the Pacific. That would be comparable.
Via going east from Toronto has its first stop in Oshawa at the end of the Transit service by commuter rail. Now between Toronto and Montreal the only half major centre is Kingston and their population is not that high at all.
Train travel is a business. With the Canadian population being spread out or located in the GTA train travel in Canada will never be economically sound.
Check out the price through the Rockies from lets say Calgary/Edmonton to Vancouver. Fly to Calgary/Edmonton then take the train.
Roy
www.cvimmigration.com
[19-12-2009,07:54]
[**.55.219.57]
Roy |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
I have yet to talk to any native Canadian who has traveled by train. It just isn´t feasible. It is expensive, slow and generally considered archaic. Likely this is quite a different view than in the Windsor-Montreal corridor.
On that note, my mother recently took the Vancouver-Toronto stretch before flying the remainder of the trip to see us on the East Coast, and she thoroughly enjoyed herself. She reported that most of the passengers were retirees, either from the States or elsewhere in the world (very few Canadians). The train isn´t considered a way to travel as much as it is a way to view the scenery, making the motives for VIA different than if it is primarily for transportation purposes (again, outside the corridor).
Air travel is also going to cause you sticker shock, Richard. Where we would fly from Ohio to Chicago or DC or NYC for next to nothing, we would never consider flying in Canada. I have a friend who had to fly from here to Saskatchewan and each ticket was well over $1,000. She wasn´t surprised and couldn´t understand my shock. Many people drive down to the States and fly from there, even back to somewhere else in Canada.
Canada is no North American Europe, Richard.
[19-12-2009,07:59]
[**.252.115.196]
wannabecanadian |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
Thanks all for the interesting input and thoughts.
Even at the shorter distances and denser populations in Europe, kilometer for kilometer the costs are not nearly as high, as MyCanada indicated.
I would argue with Roy that train travel is a business. In most countries a major factor is as a public service, providing rural towns and villages a means to get to larger metropolitan centers efficiently and affordably. Auto and air travel isn´t always feasible for these people. Most counties subsidize their rail systems, as is Amtrak.
Looking at the long distance rail costs from Via Rail, it looks like it´s fares are not only not subsidized, but artificially jacked up to suck in well-off Americans who can afford to splurge. There apparently in no concern for long distance rail in providing a service for the locals. Not even the typical middle class Canadian could not afford such prices (as wannabe correctly states).
Yes, Canada is huge with a relatively sparse population, but that´s not an excuse for abandoning public access to rail travel only to the wealthy. While the rest of the world is beefing up it´s passenger rail infrastructure, Canada is turning long distance train travel into the equivalent of a luxury cruise.
Interesting notes about you and your family´s rail experiences there, wannabe, confirming my exasperation. When I lived in Sault (pop. 75,000), the local MP from that riding had been trying for years in not decades to get rail service to Sudbury/Toronto restored there, which had been abandoned some 20 years earlier. Ottawa would have none of that.
[19-12-2009,12:52]
[**.192.28.31]
Richard |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
the only people I have known to take the train are those who have serious time on their hands and want to see the country. I would encourage you to take the train on the US side and then hop the Amtrack from Seattle to Vancouver. 2.5 hours.
[19-12-2009,14:54]
[**.154.245.217]
Sharon |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
I agree comparing Canadian rail to European could be illogical. Ontario itself is almost same to Germany in size.
But think about the need: Canada needs to link Toronto to Vancouver, being its own part. I would agree if someone says linking Norway to Italy via train may not be so needy or important. Canada needs to think to develop fast track or technolgoy rather than Japan or Germany.
Highly developed countries in EU like Germany has such nicely developed its infrastructure that many people prefer to live in small cities, town rather than in Berlin or Hamburg. The fish bone type of rail network such efficiently joins different cities, that no one needs to concentrate on large cities creating greater Toronto. All the airports in Europe are connected to the city. The major airports are better connected.
Infrastructure itself is not a business, but if you build it you can run your business on it. If you can not connect your country preoperly, how can you imagine about prosperity? Whats the difference between Saudi Arabia or UAE type of system and the Canada, "the country of the future"? I would love to travel from Toronto to Vancouver for 200 Dollar offer! But how can it be possible even one can not travel from Regina to Saskatoon by train?
Just calculate, total export of China and Germany are almost in similar value. China is massively building infrastructure, while Germany doesn´t need to worry much about it. Albeit, they can concentrate more on technolgoical development.
Whole Europe makes holiday, normally form about 1 month each year. The trains and the companies like Ryan air get massive business out of it. On the other hand in Canada, people invest more on homes, freezing the whole life income.
One needs to see how the world on other side works on and adapt the better things for own betterment.
[19-12-2009,16:33]
[**.50.57.176]
MyCanada |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
Richard
About 15 Years ago I rented a summer house (cottage) in the northern Island on which Copenhagen sits. I rented a compact car and wished it was a sub compact.
At that time Gas was $5 per litre.
There was a local Commuter train that took you to the main line then into Copenhagen.
The weather was low ceiling rainy misty constant day after day with a temperature around 19c in August. Needless to say it cost me about ninety dollars to go to Copenhagen drive around and return. The train was $4 plus probably a taxi would of cost me $14 for that day trip.
You are right most travel by train is subsidized by the European governments. Why can´t ours see the logic in that. Fix the rails or fix the potholes which are never fixed. In the GTA there is a competition for the worse roads every spring. The media goes on and on about the largest pothole is @ _____.
Go Train and Go Bus local government of Ontario transit subsidized by all the municipalities is a joke. Only the Lakeshore Lines runs all day both ways.
The Brampton line train comes in each morning and then returns to pick up another load EMPTY. Same with the Milton Line, Richmond Hill Etc.
So if you want to go to those suburbs you take a bus and vice versa at night.
GO was providing such a crappy service to YORK the city above Toronto they started their own transit service called VIVA. There is nothing that connects the 905 above Toronto communities.
The train is why BC joined confederation.
It is a business for the politicians and how do we fill in the empty areas of the country.
Roy
www.cvimmigration.com
[20-12-2009,08:05]
[**.55.219.57]
Roy |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
I don´t know, Sharon. Rail travelers don´t necessarily have any more serious free time than other folks. It reminds me of many of my colleagues who book flights to get as fast as possible to some far off resort destination, only to mostly lie on the beach all day for the week. And never having seen the people or land in between. It´s all relative in how one uses vacation/free time. But if you mean for business travel, then yes, the days spent going across the open prairie doesn´t work.
You´re right Roy. The Europeans do have public transit down pat. As My Canada and your Copenhagen experience so nicely described, there people live just about anywhere as there´s always a rail or at least bus link at reason able cost to get them to the larger cities. But your point is also well taken - the vast, remote, sparsely populated areas of North America just can´t support that. But even an attempt at providing some semblence of cross country point-to-point service should not be at 5 grand a pop. Either do it right, or abandon the whole thing to the airlines and stop the pretense.
I have to say that rail service in Chicago is quite good. Routes extend in all directions about 60 miles, running every hour. Since the economic downturn, the trains have become packed, since it´s a money saver with the state of Illinois subsidizing about half the cost of the fare. And road congestion is always there. Without it, people would be in revolt.
Not sure how much Ontario subsides commuter rail there, as I saw not much evidence of that when perusing the Go Transit rail fares last summer.
[20-12-2009,13:14]
[**.192.28.31]
Richard |
(in reply to: Rail travel in Canada)
Ask yourself this: How can one restrict the damn citizens from moving from place to place wantonly??? Simple solution: jack up the insurance rates on vehicles, jack up the bus and rail transit rates and watch the people live like rats where they belong. Where else this kind of philosophy practiced? In totalitarian countries. Canada is a remnant slave nation to Britain and it is not healthy to let these folks travel easily lest they might get ideas about freedom and liberties and what not. Oftentimes, it is no wonder the Canadians are more like neanderthals among the industrialized nations! This is a bitter truth... swallow it or leave it.
[21-12-2009,18:34]
[***.202.38.241]
Expert |
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