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| Subject: Just A Thought-2 |
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Extending the discussion
Immigrants from countries other than US:
As I and other posters said before, immigrants are mainly migrating to Canada due to economic reasons. If the immigrants find a better opportunity somewhere else, they move to that place which should not come as a surprise.
People moving from US:
We can see a lot of people moving from states to Canada, they may give any number reasons but most of them are infact due to the insecurity factor in US. First of all, green card processing is taking forever but you can only stay for 6 years on H1B. The stay on H1B can be extended for some nationalities (Indian, Chinese, etc.) but still processing is taking too long and the fact that you have to stick with the same employer during the process is affecting a lot of people. Also, getting only few weeks to find a new job in case you lose your job is also an important factor contributing to the insecurity feeling. In addition, H1B holders are complaining that their spouses are not allowed to work unlike Canada or some European countries. A lot of illegal people in US who have been living in US for years are also applying, claiming how much they love Canada.
Do we think that the above mentioned people really want to immigrate to Canada because they love Canada?
The answer is no. First, the illegals, they apply to immigrate to Canada as they are left with no choice. They know that sooner or later they are going to be deported back to their countries. If not, they might never have a decent life and will have to live in constant fear. So, here goes the argument of love for Canada.
As far as H1B visa holders are concerned, they are well aware of the reasons mentioned above. They also realize that sooner or later their stay in US is going to be over so they apply for Canadian PR. Complaining about time limits on H1B, not getting green card in time or no work rights for H1B spouses does not make much sense as people are aware of these issues in advance but still move to US due to economic reasons. As I said about people complaining about Canadian PR, they are not being forced to come to US also and are coming on their own seeing potential benefits. I guess people forget that temporary work permit means you obey the conditions and go back to your country once it is expired. Also, people should remember that green card is privilege and not a right.
Now, should we welcome and trust people who are coming as immigrants knowing fully well that they are mainly coming to Canada for economic factors? The answer is yes because they are potential Canadians and it is necessary to make them feel at home and integrate into Canadian society. Should we take measures to prevent people from misusing Canadian PR/citizenship? Again the answer is yes. Measures can be anything such as: tightening the residency requirements from 2 out of 5 years to some minimum stay every year and atleast 4 out of first 5 years. Also, obtaining citizenship should be made difficult; the residency period before applying for citizenship should atleast be 5-6 years of continuous stay in Canada, 3 years is too less.
I am surprised that Canadian government has not done anything to stop people from using Canadian PR/citizenship in an unethical way. And I am sure people will continue to do so till preventive measures are taken and we cannot blame people as they came to Canada due to potential benefits only in the first place.
[23-07-2007,14:40]
[***.21.154.77]
Samm |
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just a thought (in reply to: Just A Thought-2)
I am interested to move to Canada I´ve been checking the Net and trying to get some info how to migrate legaly to Canada sosme people say just fly and stay.No I don´t want to do that. I am a school bus driver and planning to get my class A drivers license and want to have my own truck.
My question is if you can get information for me, is a truck driver a skilled worker and qualify for a work permit?
I really apreciate if you or other person in the forum read this in the forum.
Thank you
Joe
[23-07-2007,14:59]
[***.250.148.7]
Joe Suti |
(in reply to: Just A Thought-2)
Samm,
How do you make your generalizations and assumptions as to why people move to Canada? Are you a sociologist or have you done studies?
I´m a U.S. citizen who chose to move to Canada because I like Canada, its system, politics, policies, peacefulness, and social order. In your categorization, you could say I love Canada. And there are many more Americans like me.
I am not illegal anywhere, not in desperate economic situation, have no H1-B visa to worry about, no fears, and plenty of choices. So much for your theory.
Finally, penalizing new Canadian immigrants with honest intentions to stay by tightening residency requirements is not fair or proper. The problem is with that minority who abuse the immigration system, not with the majority who commit to stay in Canada. Please save your penalties and punishments for them, not for the rest of us who have come to Canada with honest intentions to make it our home.
Sharon is correct. Canada acts in good faith and in return asks that people who apply and come to Canada act in good faith as well.
[23-07-2007,15:15]
[**.47.174.241]
Richard |
(in reply to: Just A Thought-2)
Excellent post Samm, big thanks.
About morality; except coming from some war ridden countries, we the immigrants by defintion already crossed it when we prefered to immigrate into other countries rather than staying in our motherland. Isn´t it? Situation is very bad back home, but not that we were all on a life threatening situation. Our poor countries fed us from our birth, no matter how small, but it did, it even enabled us to have some type of education, many of us got high tech degrees even at the cost of poor Govts. In retun what did we do? We prefer to utilize our merit in the developed countries. So, we are all already held morally responsible from that point. However, this can´t deter immigration, which is a natural process, human civilization is shaped by immigration in the course of history. Creation of current North America/Australia was also nothing different.
What prompts people to immigrate? Definitely better oppurtunities. It can be in form of job, human rights, weather,....many things. So, for an immigrant, the name of the country doesn´t matter. Only matter where does he get better oppurtunities.
Samm also nicely clarified the immigration from US to Canada, I also agree 100% with it. I believe that if US immigration would´ve easy like Canada then the migration rate would have been 1/10th or less. Also, Canada would have great problem by brain severe brain drainage, which is already an issue in Canada much not felt because of too open point system.
I underdstand some Canadians think this issue as something personal or insulting to Canada. The issue is not like that, it is a natural occurence. If US would lose it´s professional market then immigration would start from US to may be China or India.
People have to understand that immigration is never an easy task to do, specially at the mature age with your family. There must be some good reasons when people do that. canadian Immigrants dare to take the hassel of migration again to US don´t do just out of their will. US is not a heaven either, hard working is also necessary, and rememebr, you are not entering there with any permanant status, just as a temporary worker which can be revoked any time for many reasons. So, immigrants or citizens whoever taking that chance must have some good reasons. It takes some year to have just the canadian PR, then almost 4 years to get Canadian passport (which can really be used as the step stone to the USA), so by now you already spend like 6-8 years to just have the step stone. Then using the step stone you are having a temporary status? Is it very lucrative way to enter into US or does it sound very reasonable? I don´t think so.
I also agree that Canada may take some steps as Samm suggested. However, before that no one should raise morality issue unless a person break any existing canadian law by immigrating into the US or anywehre else. However, I personally believe that unless Canadian job market can produce enough jobs for the immigrants this issue will continue naturaly.
[23-07-2007,15:34]
[***.254.208.242]
Departed_Canadian |
(in reply to: Just A Thought-2)
Richard,
I never meant to say that all people move because of economic reasons. I said most and I only took two examples which ofcourse do not cover all people including you or other people moving purely with intentions of settling in Canada. But its difficult to believe people´s intention when they are illegals in US or their H1B stay in US is about to end or no GC in sight.
Immigration in most cases happens due to economic reasons. The other reasons include personal reasons, political stability, good environment, etc. Its a fact that most immigration to Canada happens from developing countries. Do you really think all people are immigrating cause they love Canada? They move to Canada cause they can have better life both economically and socially. You also moved to Canada cause you find Canada to be better than US on some level. May be if Canada deteriorates you will move back to US. Don´t say that its not a possibility cause if you can leave your home country for another country, you can also leave another country for your home country. It does not mean you will do it but the thought will always cross anyone´s mind if such a situation arises.
People are moving out of their countries where they have lived for decades, have families, their governments have invested in them through education and other facilities but they leave everything behind and come to Canada. Do you want to say, people will not leave Canada even if they get better opportunities? If they can shift their loyalties and by loyalties I mean they are expected to contribute to their home countries which invested in them since they were born, from their home countries to Canada then why cannot they move to another country when given an opportunity. May be not all people are like that but a lot of us are like that.
You must be aware of the fact that countries like Singapore and Hong Kong are going out of their way to attract foreign talent and how they are doing that by offering them more money. More money or economic factors are even attracting Germans, Americans, etc to go and work in these countries knowing fully well that one country is under communist china´s control and other is a strict country.
So, my whole point was economic factors are a lot more important than other factors when moving from one country to another. And if people leave Canada for other countries then we should not complain we should try to take measures which will ensure that people do stay atleast for sometime and not use PR/citizenship in an unethical manner. However, if they do we cannot blame them as the fault is with the system and not with them as they moved to Canada in search of a better life. If they get it somewhere else, they will move to such places.
I do not think I need to be sociologist to see this. And my views were impartial with no intention to offend anyone.
[23-07-2007,15:56]
[***.21.154.72]
Anonymous |
(in reply to: Just A Thought-2)
Anon (or Samm),
Your points are well-taken. I understand your perspective on economic need as a driving force for immigration.
But you and your colleagues of similar views still do not address the fairness issue for other applicants. These are people who apply and choose Canada not as a "backdoor" to anyplace else, but because they like Canada for many reasons. The "backdoor" people make the waiting longer for these people. Is it fair to the Canadian government and taxpayers to provide immigration processing for people who just see Canada as a "backdoor" to someplace else?
The other point is that Canada itself offers very good economic opportunities, although more modest and in harmony with the environment and planet. I suspect the motivation to "springboard" from Canada to the U.S. is often greed. There one might eventually afford that 5,000 square foot house and park 2 Hummers in the driveway. Not to generalize or stereotype, but Asian immigrants in America that I meet and knew tended toward these goals more so than those from other parts of the world. Condemn me for these words, but that was my observation.
[23-07-2007,17:10]
[**.47.174.241]
Richard |
(in reply to: Just A Thought-2)
Raichard,
Sorry that we both missed your concern about the "Step Stone" users deal. Though I tried to explain how the theory of using Canada as backdoor to the USA is not very practical (if you read my earlier post). You have to spend almost 6-8 years to get Canadian passport in total to use it as the backdoor. So, doesn´t seem very realistic. That´s why I believe that this % of immigrants are very small. To assume that whoever leaving Canada to US are in this class doesn´t seem rational. Howeever, I must have to admit that many guys from US specially the H-1B wrokers get Canadian PR to just have a backup in case GC is denied. This no. may be significant. Many of my freinds took this. They just landed for once, stayed 2/3 days as a pleasure trip then retuned to US, their PR card were mailed to them later by friends/relatives. Yes, what they are doing is ethically wrong. They are using Canadian Govt´s resources and eventually the real immigration seekers are getting behind. However, still they are not breaking any existing Canadian law. This is something like you are wasting a freezer full of food while there are many hungry faces around. Legally you are free to waste. This example may not be appropriate, but the tone is similar.
"The other point is that Canada itself offers very good economic opportunities" -I can´t agree here fully. As far as I know you moved to Canada few months ago and still struggling for a suitable job. You are an American, with native accent, local degree/experience. Can you imagine what could be the situation for the non-English speaking foreign trained immigrants? It is true Asian immigrants come for a better life. May be they are always attracted by money. However, there is a limit. As mentioned before, nobody wants to immigrate from country to country forever with families. As a matter of fact, the salary diffences in professional level jobs in between US/Canada are that much now, with the declining US dollar. I started in US with 50K US, in Canada one of my lucky course mate started with 52K Canadian. So, is there any major difference? The true reason reason, salary/benefit is secondary, primary is availability of jobs. I´m an Asian as well, born in one of the poorest country of the world. I always get offer to work in middle East at more than twice than that I make in the US, remember, there salary is tax free. Am I running there? Believe me, there are many thousands of Indians/Pakis/Chinese like me in the US.
[23-07-2007,17:37]
[***.254.208.242]
Departed_Canadian |
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